I love all food. Even virtual food. Naturally, I was attracted to Cook, Serve, Delicious!, and I even took the chance to write about its fantastic sequel. However, I needed to know more. While I can't travel around the world and bother chefs professionally like Guy Fieri does, I can bother developers semi-professionally over Discord under the guise of Sam Speaks. This led me to David Galindo, the programmer behind Vertigo Game's wacky cooking simulator. We had a chat about starting off making iffy video games, following your dreams, the true purpose behind the massive menu, and what's next.
TechRaptor: Hello David! Thank you for joining me. So why don't we start with the beginning. How did Vertigo Games get started?
David Galindo: I started pretty much in Jr. High making games, and I was just trying to think of a weird funny name that I could think of and that was Vertigo Games. I was just making a bunch of games under that name. Just a bunch of small freeware games. It wasn't until... gosh, I don't know, six or seven years ago that I was really trying to make it a full time career.
That's pretty much how I got started. I was really wanting to kind of enjoy doing it as a hobby, but I knew if I wanted to make it on my own and make it into a career I needed to make bigger games that were actually funded, because usually I would do the art and it wouldn't look very good but it would at least work. Once I started investing a little bit of money into it and getting an artist and a composer thankfully things started slowly taking off until we released out first major game, which was Cook, Serve, Delicious!
TechRaptor: While I know Cook, Serve, Delicious! was your first major game, according to your website you made, well, a lot before that. Your first game was Nocturnal Emmision which your site says, and I quote, "oh jeez just don't play this game."
David: [Laughter.] Yeah.
TechRaptor: Bad memories?
David: Oh boy. It was just... it was my first game, and I assumed I would sell it and make money off of it. I sent it to the creator of GameMaker at the time, Mark Overmars, and asked him for feedback. He said "this game just isn't very good, I'm sorry." I was not ready to hear that, I didn't think it was bad at all, and that really shook me up and woke me up to the fact that you need to hear that. You need to hear somebody tell you that game was not good, so you can kind of reflect on why and get better from it.
But yeah, it used a bunch of internet clipart everywhere, and the platforming was terrible. It's just a terrible terrible game. It's funny though, you know? A lot of people's first games are maybe not as bad as mine, definitely not as bad as mine, but it's always fun to kind of just still have it out there and see what other people thing. I don't know. Just don't play it.
TechRaptor: Before you guys went to Cook, Serve, Delicious! you worked on a flash game called ... I'm about to mess this up real bad... Ore no Ryomi?
TechRaptor: Was that the correct pronunciation?
David: I think so! It's... well it wasn't actually a flash game, it was a downloadable game. It was a take on Ore no Ryouri on the Japanese... it was a Japanese demo I played on a PlayStation Underground disc. It was so much fun that I made a little fan version of it. I made two fan versions, and I really started to think "gosh, what would it look like if I took this idea of cooking and all these dynamics and made it into my own?" From there it was basically creating pretty much an entirely different game, even though they share the same kind of order, coming in and preparing.
I never did play the full version of Ore no Ryouri. I think that's a good thing because that allowed me to kind of make my own games, made me think of different dynamics I didn't see and make it into my own. But yeah, I give full credit to that game for even giving me the inspiration for making me attempt a cooking game, because gosh that demo was so much fun.
TechRaptor: If you ever found the full game, would you try it?
David: I'd try it now for sure. I think I'm so far into what I'm doing that I don't think it would really influence me anymore. It's weird, I think you have to be careful when a game is like a homage to something, or when it's influenced by something, or when it's ripping off something, and I'm happy the game is so different from Ore no Ryouri, but I've never tried to hide the fact. Because, you know, this game is where it all started and I'm hugely influenced by this game.
I have played a little of the full game, but it's all in Japanese so it's kind of hard to parse for me. But yeah, it was a hugely influential game to me. It's just me. I definitely recommend trying it out.
TechRaptor: I'll have to give it a shot at some point. Between that and when you first made Cook, Serve, Delicious! there's quite a few smaller puzzle titles in-between, like greenTech+ and The Oil Blue. What basically served as the inspiration for some of those games?
David: I just find myself making totally different all the time. In a weird, cocky, way I thought I could do all the genres, which I very much could not. A lot of my games you could tell. I just wanted to kind of see what I was best at, and for a long time it was puzzle-type games. But those really didn't sell at all, or they didn't get downloaded very much. Puzzle games are just very hard to release these days. It's such a niche genre.
I just really like kind of exploring where I could go, what games I could make. I don't even know... it was a lot of fun to jump around like that, but I wanted to start to make it into a serious thing and I wanted to make this into a natural business. It's kind of sad, because I don't have the kind of opportunities I had back then of just making whatever I want. Now, in the back of my head, I'm thinking "I could make this, but would it make money?" I'm very very eager to get to a place where I can make small projects and I don't have to worry about the money part of the situation, because right now it does feel like I'm pigeonholed into making things that I know is a good financial decision.
That's important right now, building capital. Maybe later on I can kind of relax things and I can do what I did back then, kind of go crazy and make whatever I want.
TechRaptor: Your first big commercial game success would be Cook, Serve, Delicious!. As you mentioned before, you based it on that Japanese game I'm never going to correctly pronounce.
TechRaptor: So you made Cook, Serve, Delicious!. How did you sit down and say "I'm going to take another shot at that cooking game, but make it commercially viable"?
David: Oh you mean like from the fan game?
TechRaptor: Yeah, how do you go from the fan game to Cook, Serve, Delicious!?
David: Well, I think I was... Ore no Ryomi 2 was my most popular game that I made up to that point. I thought "gosh, I'm going to go out that and I'm going to make a game that I want to make a career with." First I wanted to try something new and unique, and that was The Oil Blue, which actually shared a little bit of mechanics from Cook, Serve, Delicious!. It was mostly this oil drilling sim game kind of thing. It got some good feedback and it sold pretty well. It sold just enough for me to make one more shot at making it a full time career.
So, going into Cook, Serve, Delicious! I thought I'm going to take my most popular game that I've done, put some money into it, hire an actual artist, hire a composer, and I'm going to try and give it all I got. I had already hired two people from The Oil Blue and I was able to kind of make it a bigger game, have a little bit more of a budget. I think the budget was about $15,000, which was a ton of money for me. I knew if it wasn't going to work, that would be it.
It was kind of the safest choice that I had to try and break into the industry. The opening sales were real bad. It wasn't until Giant Bomb gave it a try and did a Quick Look that we found our audience. I give so much credit to them because, if it wasn't for them, the game would have never taken off. It wasn't on Steam, Steam was very hard to get on at the time, it was really just on my website. It just felt like, in a weird way, it just felt like a safe decision because, as much fun as it was hopping around all these different genres and stuff, I was very aware even then on what's the best financial bet I can make, and that kind of leans into the sequel as well.
TechRaptor: When you worked on basically jumping from all these little games to Cook, Serve, Delicious!, what's the change in philosophy in how you make these games? Is there a change in how it feels to make all this?
David: I think it helps that I enjoy a lot of different genres to play. I like playing all kinds of games, and whatever is in my head I kind of just go for it. It's not really so much "I want to make a puzzle game" or "I'm going to make a sim game or an action game." It's usually directly inspired by me playing a random game. I think how would I do this my own way? What would I bring to the table? Those kind of ideas.
I'm thankful for GameMaker Studio, because I can kind of do whatever I want on a 2D plane. It lets me pretty much code whatever I want to do. That's why I'm kind of able to pretty much go after whatever I'd like to do. Maybe not so much now, but back then it was easy to just jump around genres. Basically I just wanted to make a game in whatever genre it was, that was it. Just kind of random ideas, I suppose, from different games I was playing at the time, I think.
TechRaptor: So the first time I started up Cook, Serve, Delicious!, since it's the first thing I noticed, I have to ask. What went into making that hilarious title theme?
David: It was the composer, Johnathan Geer, he had some ideas and he asked "would you mind if I kind of just go for it and get some voices and make this crazy theme?" and I said yeah, absolutely. Go for it.
So when I first heard it I immediately thought "oh no, I don't know if this is good." I was kind of shocked. I remember immediately thinking this wasn't what I wanted. I was thinking of a little classical thing, nowhere in my head did I think it was going to be a voiced song like that. But I kept hearing it and hearing it, and the more I heard it the more I loved it and I thought this was actually fantastic. So he totally went for it, and it paid off big time.
TechRaptor: Now speaking of both the music and the style, it feels like a lot of Cook, Serve, Delicious! takes influence from goofy Japanese cooking shows like The Iron Chef where everything is super dramatic anytime something happens.
David: Yeah, it is actually.
TechRaptor: Out of curiosity, how many hours of those shows did you watch for research?
David: Oh gosh. I used to love those kind of shows. What's that Food Network show? Where there's the secret ingredient? Iron Chef America! I liked Master Chef. I loved all those kind of cooking reality shows. Yeah, I think the first one definitely leaned more towards those kinds of experiences. Those big over the top production values, those always make me laugh. It's just so funny.
I kind of just went from there, and found the humor in that kind of area of just normal mundane things being so funny to me. Or these big over the top sequences for food. I mean it's literally just cooking food, but you can turn it into this big momentous thing, and I just got a kick out of it. So yeah, it was definitely influenced by stuff like that.
TechRaptor: When you finished Cook, Serve, Delicious! was there anything you had to leave on the cutting room floor that you wish you had a chance to put in to the game?
David: There's always certain ideas that I think get into your head, but nothing ever really... I guess the things that I usually have to cut that I regret cutting I end up adding back in through free updates. For the first game that was the battle kitchen idea of these competitive types of challenges and stuff. For Cook, Serve, Delicious! 2!! that was all of the barista foods and stuff that I just didn't have time to add in. I later did. So I'm kind of thankfully that a lot of that stuff eventually gets added in.
There have been instances where I've just cut something that isn't working at all. With The Oil Blue that was this dynamic of feeding your employees and maintaining an employee headcount. There this whole other simulation of employee management that I just end up completely cutting because it was not fun. That was a lot of wasted art and time, and it really made the game a little bit shorter, but I thought at the time it was the right thing to do. So I have more instances cutting things that end up in the game than I have cutting things that I want to put in, which is very weird.
TechRaptor: Recently with Cook, Serve, Delicious! 2!!, but also with the original game, after they came out and got popular on PC you ported them to consoles. I think the original game came to the PlayStation 3 if I remember correctly?
David: No, we actually wanted to do that, but at the time GameMaker Studio... I don't know if it wasn't set up for that or we just ended up waiting for the sequel, because there was going to be a lot of work involved in porting it. Because the first game wasn't built for controllers, it was very much added on later, and it wasn't until the sequel until I really focused on making the controller an intrical experience.
TechRaptor: Then for the sequel, how much of a different experience is it putting the game on PC, and then putting it on the PlayStation 4?
David: You mean as far as on my end?
David: Its been fascinating, really. It hasn't been difficult at all thanks to GameMaker Studio. I had it up and running in a week or two, and I think it was ready to go in a month. Same goes for the Switch version that we're working on right now. I got that up and running very quickly.
What I didn't realize was the bureaucracy of console making, and all the paperwork and all the steps you have to do and all the tests and all the... I have a lot more appreciation for some of really terrible titles that are on these consoles, that you think fell out of a terrible mobile studio. They put in a lot of work to get that game on there. I guess you can say it's even more baffling that they're even on there in the first place. Because there's so much work involved.
But yeah, it takes work. It takes a lot of work to get games going on consoles. Not so much on the development side, even though there was challenges too. Just the sheer amount of steps in paperwork and making sure everything is up to the standards of the company you're making it for. Boy, I didn't expect that much. I really didn't. But I'm learning, and I think the next time around I'll be a lot more prepared for some of the challenges I've been facing lately.
TechRaptor: Would you say that having a game on the PlayStation or Switch is kind of like the big dream?
Dave: It is, it feels like you made it, kind of. You're finally a big time indie developer. At the same time, I think I do have a lot more appreciation for PC now. It's always going to be much easier to build the game on that platform. I can't imagine releasing a game now at the same time with consoles and stuff. I would probably release the PC version early, with Early Access or something now, than I would with making a game for everything, because it allows me to fluidly balance and change things, make things better, add content, and yeah. It's great, I like putting it on consoles, I'm a console gamer, I'm not really a PC gamer, but it does make me realize how much I love PC releases. It really is just so much easier.
TechRaptor: You guys finish up Cook, Serve, Delicious!. Did you start working on the sequel right away, or was there something else you wanted to do in-between?
Dave: We were working on a totally different game that was going to take me three years to make. I was about a year and a half into it when I realized "gosh, if I keep making this game then Cook, Serve, Delicious! 2!! won't get released until 2017. That's insane. I have to start making it now." So I put that game on the shelf, that I haven't announced, that I'm going to go back to pretty soon I think.
I made Cook, Serve, Delicious! 2!! instead. It got released in 2017, as it turns out. Probably wouldn't have been able to do that if I hadn't shelved my other game. That other game is something I'm really looking forward to returning to at some point. A lot of the art was finished for it. It's one of those games that, when I was making games back then I was jumping genres around, and this is just an entirely different genre I've never done before. It could turn out real bad, I have no idea, but gosh I am so ready to make it.
TechRaptor: One thing I noticed while playing Cook, Serve, Delicious! 2!!, I mentioned in the review, and I quote "It seems like every culture has some sort of representation here, to the point where Super Smash Bros would blush" in relation to the amount of food in the game. How do you decide which food goes in, what would be fun to make, and the process behind in picking how the food can be served?
Dave: It was basically starting with everything I knew, which was mainly American, and then building off of that and finding new foods that I thought were just really cool or delicious looking or that I thought would be interesting to add. Things that you wouldn't even know were foods to begin with. Pigs blood cake would be one that I just wanted to add because it was just... it sounds so crazy to me.
Once I found foods that looked entertaining from a preparing perspective, delicious, or at least interesting, I would go on YouTube and get recipes and try to see how they prepare it and put those in a category of different kinds. Like a deep fried food means I'll be using the deep fried mechanics, or if it's a totally different kind of food then I'm going to have to code brand new gameplay experiences. Certain foods, like tamales, don't share any kind of preparing mechanics from any other food. It's a very unique food. Same thing with creme brulee and stuff.
Then there are other foods, like lasagna and tiramisu that share the same inherent kind of code, but the way you prepare the recipes are very different. So it was kind of fun. I think going into that many foods you lose a little bit of the uniqueness from the first game, where just about every food was kind of different. I mean, honestly, there's only so many ways you can make a sandwich, but there are so many different kind of sandwiches. So I think, in that way, it's a lot more unique and it allows for a lot more foods, but it doesn't allow for a lot of variation in gameplay.
So that's why I created the campaign structure of the second game, which was 400 levels and kind of throwing all these different foods at you. Keeping things fresh, because otherwise, if you were to structure it like the first game, people would get in their wheelhouse. They would get lasagna and maybe a few other foods. They'd never touch the 200+ foods in the catalogue. It influenced the campaign and it influenced the game design, having that many foods.
TechRaptor: Have you eaten each of the 200 foods in the game?
David: Probably half, maybe? Its been fun. I went to Seattle and met a few streamers and game developers and they had heard about my game and I'd tell them I've never had tabbouleh or I've never had okonomiyaki. One person brought me to his house and made okonomiyaki, which was delicious. I've been brought to a restaurant that served some of the best Korean food. Oh man, that was such a great, fun, experience.
But where I live here in Texas it's hard to come by some of the more foreign foods to me. I think one day I'd love to just eat everything that I have in the game. That's probably my life goal. I guess we'll see. But yeah, it's pretty neat. It actually tuned me in to a lot of foods that I've never tried before that I just love now.
TechRaptor: I'm starting to get the feeling that part of your motivation to make this game was to hand everyone a list of food that they should feed you.
David: [Laughter.] Yes, it's great. I think it's great. I always get a kick out of people that I'm watching their stream or something and they say "oh what are sopapillas? I've never heard of that." and I just think "how can you never hear of sopapillas? That's crazy." Then they try it and they love it and I get the satisfaction of introducing a food they never would have tried to begin with. For some reason that's just super... that makes me super happy. I don't know why.
TechRaptor: It's all okay. So you mentioned before the campaign and all these restaurants. What goes into designing one of the restaurants in Cook, Serve, Delicious! 2!!? How do you decide what should be serving what, and what'd be fun?
David: I was basically getting all the genres of food that I had available in the game, and then I would put them in groups of what you would find, where they would be in a restaurant, and then building from there. So we had a lot of Chinese and Japanese food, so there's about three different kinds of restaurants for those. I didn't have a lot of Mexican food, so there was only one Mexican restaurant on release. I ended up adding a second one when we added a few extra Mexican foods for the Barista Update.
I was basically working backwards. Making the foods first and then figuring out what restaurants would be available for them. I guess that's not typically the way you normally do, but it worked out pretty good I think.
TechRaptor: How many of these restaurants are based on actual restaurants you've been to?
David: Probably less than half, I would think. There are some that are certainly direct parody of Subway or McAlisters or Burger King. You know, all kinds of restaurants. Other ones are like parodies of restaurants that I don't know if they even exist, but they have to exist. Like Oooh Organic and stuff like that.
It was fun kind of playing off of restaurants that exist or existed at one point, like Sub Solutions, even the logo looks kind of like a Subway, but it was the Subway of the 90's, not so much the Subway you find now. But that's the Subway I remember as a kid, and that was a lot more fun and interesting to me than playing off of Subway now. Subway back then was these old Subway wallpaper car things with these gaudy green wood booths and stuff. I can picture it in my head, and to me that's just a lot more interesting than the standard modern look they have now.
So we were just playing with kind of everything really. Kind of all kinds of looks and designs and stuff like that.
TechRaptor: If I send you a picture of the restaurant I made in the game, will you rate it on a scale of one to ten?
David: Oh yeah look at that. [Laughter.] I like that. I think that's pretty neat. I would eat at that place.
TechRaptor: Thank you.
David: I love the words that you put in there. It's that kind of stuff that... So things I don't like in games are jokes in games, where you see something and it looks straight out of a meme or something, and you're like "okay I get it." For me it's just not funny. When you're creating those kinds of objects that people will place in the restaurant, I have no idea how they're going to turn out, but the absurdity of them helps people make these funny and crazy restaurants. Like yours.
So that, to me, is more inherently funnier, to kind of give people the tools to make funny things, not so much... sorry I'm going on a rant here. It's just great that it kind of works out the way it does.
TechRaptor: Speaking of the restaurant creation and all that, besides the campaign Cook, Serve, Delicious! 2!! lets you make Cook, Serve, Delicious! the restaurant again. How tough would you say is it to include the management aspects along with all the cooking stuff?
David: There's not too much of a management aspect. I think it's to the game's detriment, I'm not sure. It was tough to balance that, and I think I kind of shoved that to the side for the initial release, and then as we made more content updates I started adding more and more to the Cook, Serve, Delicious! part of the game. It is hard. It's hard because people expect the same game as the first game, and then get mad when it's very much not the first game. I think people would get tired of something that's just the same thing. So it was very difficult finding a balance to the managerial aspects of the game while having this brand new campaign that's 400 levels.
I think we got close. I don't think we nailed it, but I don't necessarily think Cook, Serve, Delicious!'s strengths are of this kind of management game. The first one did that as well as we could, and if I was ever to make another sequel I don't... I think I would just go in a totally different direction.
TechRaptor: Do you think you would go like Battle Chef Brigade where you kill the things you cook?
David: I think there would be a good amount of weirdness to it. Because if you read the lore that we have in the second game, it's a very weird world out of the tower, and I think if you were to see a third game it would not be at all what you would expect, except for the gameplay.
So yeah, I have some ideas in my head, but I don't know. We'll see what happens.
TechRaptor: I'm actually glad you brought the lore up, because what on Earth is going on in that world? It sounds insane.
David: It does. It was because I had hired two writers to help me flesh out all the food descriptions, and we ended up just going nuts. Setting the game in the future and just having fun with what the future was, and just cracking up so much. It was... I don't want to say too much, because I think one of the pleasant joys of the game is kind of slowly learning where the game is set. Because the first game is just a regular kind of game, just in set in the now. Cook, Serve, Delicious! 2!!, if you don't read up on it, it could totally pass you by that it's set in the future. It's fun. We had a lot of fun making all the lore for the game.
TechRaptor: I know you don't want to spoil too much of it, but is there at least one lore tidbit that you really enjoyed that you want to share how it came about?
David: I love that the capital of the United States is now Nashville, because Washington was sunk into the ocean. So that's probably my favorite tidbit, I think.
TechRaptor: Now when Cook, Serve, Delicious! 2!! came out, originally... the reception wasn't bad, but it definitely wasn't quite what you were expecting.
David: Oh, sure.
TechRaptor: What would you say ... how do you go back and correct all that? Fix it up and make it more better?
David: I think it's... so the Metacritic rating of the PC version is at a 60-something, like it's bad. Because we only have four reviews. I think, at the lowest we got, was an 80% approval rating on Steam with a couple hundred reviews. With that I started building the game, making improvements, more modes, more fan requests, and we built it up from 80% to 88%, which I'm really happy about that. I think that speaks to the fan base of the game and a lot of the support that we've had, and the PlayStation version has all of the fixes and features and new updates we made for PC over the last year, and the ratings for that one are in the 8's and 9's, which is fantastic. That's the game were I think it should have been at launch, but ultimately it wasn't.
I wrote a Gamasutra article about the challenges facing production and how I ended up getting there and what I've learned. I do recommend reading that if you want to read the absolute hell before launch. That wasn't this game, because it was mainly a hell of my creation because I'm the only programmer for the game, it is up to me to make the release dates and it's up to me to take my vision and put it on the screen. So it all ends with me, and gosh... I learned a lot from that launch. But I'm glad we were able to come away with a much strong game than I think I ever thought it could be.
TechRaptor: I will give that article a read. Now the next thing planned for Cook, Serve, Delicious! 2!! is the Switch port, which I'm sure you're working on. After that, do you think you're done with the game or are you going to put out another update?
David: I think there's some fun announcements I will have this year, lets say. Some... yeah, that's all I think I'm going to say.
TechRaptor: Fair enough. You mentioned earlier you were working on your next game, or you wanted to get back to that next game. Can you share any details about it or do you want to keep it all under wraps still?
David: Pretty much in my head there are three games I want to make. One game is very much in production right now, with art and writing. The second game is the game I put on the shelf, it has a bunch of art ready to go that I need to get back to. The third game is just one of those weird games that I was directly inspired by other games that could be real bad or it could be real great that I want to do in the span of like four or five months. So I just... it's so weird to have all these games I want to make, but that is the state of things right now.
Of course I also have Cook, Serve, Delicious! 2!! that I'm porting to consoles and, you know, the gaining metrics on and looking at how I can improve and stuff like that. There's a lot on my plate right now I guess you could say. But I am very much already working on our next game.
TechRaptor: When do you think you'll be ready to announce it?
David: That's a pretty good question. You'll just have to wait and see.
TechRaptor: Is it right now?
David: [Laughter.] No, it's definitely not right now.
TechRaptor: Okay. Worth trying. For the most part that's all I have to ask. Do you have any final statements about Cook, Serve, Delicious! 2!!, your next game, or anything else you want to share?
David: So these three games that I have in mind, they are very much under the sector of "when are these new consoles coming?", and it's kind of weird as an indie dev because I certainly don't know anything about what Sony is doing, what Microsoft is doing, nothing. But I am very aware of the potential that these new consoles could get announced this year, they could be released next year. So it's interesting because now my scheduled... the reason that I'm not making the other game that has a bunch of art attached to it is because that's a two to three year project, and I want to make this other game first because that game has the best chance of releasing on PC and consoles before the next new consoles come out.
So it is a weird time right now for game development, because no one has said anything about a new console but I am very aware that I'm on a time limit here. If these new powerful consoles-- we use GameMaker Studio. I have no idea what the support will be for PlayStation 5. If I can release the game on PlayStation 5, if it's going to take a year, I have no idea. So I have to take advantage of being able to release on Xbox and PlayStation 4 and Switch and all that, and try and balance my schedule where I can get in right before the new consoles.
I don't know if anybody else is doing it that way, but I think it's a very fascinating time in development, and very kind of nerve-racking and scary because I'm doing my best to release my next game faster than I've ever made a game before, and that is entirely because I'm very nervous about getting caught under the weight of these huge new consoles, you know? Because it's not going to be indie game peoples are going crazy over, it's going to be these huge AAA blockbuster titles. I think, as an indie dev, you just got to hunker down, let things settle, see were everything is. Maybe a year after the PlayStation 5 gets release or something. So we'll see.
TechRaptor: Well I hope it all works out for you in the end.
David: Well thank you!
TechRaptor: I'd like to thank you for taking the time to talk to me, seriously, its been very interesting and I'd love to hear more about these games.
David: Oh for sure, yeah, you bet. I'm really excited to announce them. So we'll see what happens.
TechRaptor: Awesome. Well, thank you.
David: Yeah, thank you so much, this was a lot of fun for me.
We'd like to once again thank David for taking the time to talk with us.