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Game developer Grace Lynn, formerly Devi Ever, has come under fire recently for donating her first big game development paycheck to the non-profit organisation Feminist Frequency, rather than paying back her $40k+  IRS debts or refunding backers of her failed KickStarter project. The amount Lynn donated is unclear, but rumours that it amounts to $40,000, the same amount which her KickStarter raised back in 2012, are simply unfounded and the amount is more likely to be around $500.

Despite her KickStarter to create a new kind of guitar pedal receiving twice the requested amount, by December 2013 Lynn had updated her account to announce that she had failed at the project. While 50% of the money raised by the KickStarter had gone into design development of the pedal, and Lynn states that the other half went into business and personal living expenses and is now gone.  While there are several reports from people that Lynn is poor with managing money, claims that Lynn spent this money on guitars, medical expenses and PS3’s are only based on anecdotal evidence and therefore unreliable. Lynn then sold the company to DwarfCraft who would work with her to refund backers for the failed project, or send them replacement DwarfCraft brand pedals as per the KickStarter terms of service, which state:

“Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.”

However, due to financial difficulties, her declining health and Lynn’s claims that she is still failing to reach the standards for a living wage she has been apparently unable to pay back her debts. According to a facebook group for backers of the project while some have received full , or at least some significant reimbursements, others have received nothing. While this group only represents a small number of the over 200 backers of the project, to date, none have received replacement pedals.

Lynn maintains that she is still trying to refund backers, however, after many attacked her on Twitter for making her recent donation rather than paying back her debts, she released an unstable statement on KickStarter encouraging backers to sue her and attacking them in this now deleted tweet. Backers have also been upset that while still in debt she continues to fund several people on Patreon. One backer who has been vocal in his outrage, has reportedly had his debt cleared by a stranger so that he would “f**k off”. He is still encouraging others to contact Lynn’s Twitter using the hashtag ConsoleGate.

While I reached out to Lynn for comment, at the time of publishing she has not yet replied, but I urge all of you to read this storify she made on the issue, which confirms her position that she is still in debt, and trying to pay back her backers as soon as possible.

Update: A member of the company deviever:fx has been in touch with me and has stated that they are happy with my assessment of the situations. We would like to thank them for replying back to my enquiries.


Georgina Young

Contributor

British girl, currently in Japan. Surviving on a diet of retro games. Worshiping the god that is the Sega Megadrive. I like Nintendo.



  • Jeff

    Incidents like these causes me to lose faith in KS day by day… matter of fact… in people.. Projects that has potential and can succeed is being ignored while noobs like Lynn and potato salad and No-Phone makes it all the way…

  • wcg

    I think there’s going to be a class action suit that blows up these crows funding companies because of incidents like this. Although there are likely built-in legal protections against backers from seeking damages for failed projects, this case borders on fraud.

  • SevTheBear

    This is one of the very reasons I don’t touch kickstarter. Sure there is good ones out there (Star Citizen). But for the most part there is no guarantee you will get your monies worth.

  • Nytezero

    I’ve used Kickstarter twice myself, both times to fund books. Both books are completed and have been delivered. I would say kickstarter is perfectly fine, if you fund wisely.

  • Ørjan Kristoffersen

    The crowdfunding bubble is going to burst, and soon, methinks.

    Between Double Fine’s many well documented failures, the Mighy No 9 debacle, and continuous stories like this, the amount of products (and games in particular) that are going to succeed at crowdfunding are going to drop severely.

    Kinda sucks, a lot of good games have been made possible through crowdfunding, but that’s what happens when big titles and supposedly trustworthy names fail to meet their goals.

  • watwut

    Nitpick: “has reportedly had his debt was cleared by a stranger” probably should be “has reportedly had his debt cleared by a stranger”.

    Nice article. This is what we need journalists for – to separate rumors from verifiable facts. It is good to be reminded that rumors tend to be exaggerated once in a while.

  • Pablo Hernández

    Another scam from a feminist “game developer”? I’m not surprised.

  • ZekeKeZ

    Who cares if she is in debt(rhetorical) Anyway we don’t have to do anything. The IRS will handle it. She’s fucked.

  • Sebastian Mikulec

    My favorite part is where she asks her backers, the people whose money she squandered, to support her other projects. “I ripped you off, give me more of your money.”

  • Sebastian Mikulec

    That’s the sad part, it smears the name of crowdfunding. While there will always be scammers or people that go into these projects without the proper skills and/or team to manage and complete the project successfully, the platform itself is still a great tool for things to be made that would never get supported by an investor/publisher. For every failure like this or Clang or the sad saga of Double Fine Adventure (Broken Age), there are success stories like Expeditions: Conquistador, Wasteland 2 and Divinity: Original Sin (all great games that delivered exactly what they promised and in a reasonably timely manner [there were delays, but nothing like with Broken Age]). I guess the bottom line with crowdfunding is do your due dilligence. Research the people behind the project, see if they have the necessary expertise and experience to handle managing the project they are trying to crowdfund. There will always be a risk of failure, but it can be significantly lowered by only backing people with proven trackrecords.

  • Freeman

    “What? I must be held accountable for my actions? Well that’s just straight up harassment.” – Every social justice warrior ever.

  • Azure

    It is hard to find sympathy when she holds Fem Frequency (Which unless you have been hiding under a rock is under a lot of hate from many groups) over her backers. When she is supposed to try and clear her debts over anything else.

    Seriously her position sucks right now I wish her the best but she cannot just donate money like that when she needs to clear debts first.

  • ArsCortica

    Judging by my previous impressions of Ms Ever while she was still supportive of the #GG consumer revolt (and her condemning it soon after because apparently people didn’t bother to donate to her patreon), this hardly comes as a surprise for me.

    Though I have used Kickstarter to back a handful or projects, the company itself flatly stating that “Kickstarter doesn’t evaluate a project’s claims, resolve disputes, or offer refunds” should ring alarm bells for everyone who knows how scam artists work.

  • It’s a shame that this kind of incidents only end up building a worse image for Kickstarter as a platform, not like they are doing too much to avoid this kind of situations from happening, or fixing the cases where they do happen.

    I’ve supported 2 projects there, fortunately one ended successfully with no complaints, and the other had been sharing consistent progress but yeah, the more notorious ones happen to be because of backers being pretty much scammed, like this one.

  • Meittimies

    Theres been plenty of legit good Kickstarter games that have come out, FTL and Wasteland 2 are both good examples.

    One thing these few months have been taught everyone though, and that is to check if any of the developers live in San Fransisco. Seems that every account of mismanaging money seems to be coming from devs and teams that live in there.

    So if theres anyone in the Kickstarter project team that lives in San Fransisco: Avoid it like the plague!

  • A Hyena

    So far, only thing I’ve donated to on KS was those guys who made “The Reward” wanting to make a full animated series in similar style. They been doing little contests here and there to let people get to participate in some way.

    Like last month, designing a speedo for a specific character, and this month, there’s one for doing the shout of a barbarian guy drawing his swords. If I had a decent room for doing voice recording, I’d give it a try :v

  • scopeless22 .

    Hey, don’t knock potato salad KS. At least he did everything he promised he would and I think shows good can come from silly ideas.

  • I don’t think this is gaming-related.

    This person has been mainly involved professionally in the music industry, creating guitar effects units, and the kickstarter in question was about guitar effects units. It’s true that she has made some games, but this instance was not about games.

    Also, some people have said that she’s a scam artist. I don’t think she’s a scam artist, just really bad with money. Leave it to her kickstarter-backers and the IRS to deal with, it’s not up to us to get angry and upset with everyone for anything and everything.

  • Mark Samenfink

    She proved her unreasonable nature to me quite clearly months ago. This comes as no shock, it is simply a sad truth.

    Solid article Georgina keep up the good work

  • DukeMagus

    But if she’s in debt, why the hell donate the money dammit!?

  • Marburg-chan

    I’d say using the money you’re given for other stuff it wasn’t intended qualifies at scam. You don’t need to be a genius to know that is wrong that if people give you money to do X, you must do X, not spend it all paying Y debts and donating to Z charities.

    And the article is pretty neutral, if people get angry and upset it’s because the event triggers those emotions. Nowhere in the article is encouraged to raise up and intervene in any way.

    btw here’s the archive of deviever screenshot of her donating to fremfreq:
    https://archive.today/mqRQl
    https://archive.is/mqRQl/8a71614f36320fbc559991ecf32d6efd2ea32096.png
    https://archive.is/mqRQl/d87a2745be756edb2bdded1967ea136d89767e52.png

  • Mitchell Pollock

    You don’t end up with 40K+ of IRS debts if you’re making little money. Just a thought.

  • Audie Bakerson

    Despite a feminine sounding name Grace/Devi is, in fact, male. A basic google image search will tell you this.

  • Lee Grandmaison

    Just goes to show the feminist ethic.

    Or, to be more precise, lack of ethics.

  • handsomejack47

    I have only backed 2 things on Kickstarter: Mighty No 9 (before the Dina incidents) and Shantae: Half-Genie Hero. For MN9, I was considering demanding a refund due to Dina being an all-around horrible person, but since it looks like Comcept told her to cut that shit out, I’m going to keep my pledge. I’m still going to ignore the forums altogether, though.

    As for Shantae, WayForward haven’t given me a reason to doubt them, so I’ll gladly support them.

  • KLLRFRST

    She’s basically “pulling a Schafer”.

  • KLLRFRST

    Comcept actually reprimanded her? I haven’t heard anything about this.

  • Code : Verde

    As a person burned by a fraudulent campaign once. I’m having a very hard time keeping my anger in check. They promise one thing and do something completely and utterly dishonest.

    And the worst part, the scammers hate the title of “scammer”.
    They hate being held responsible for their own actions. They hate when people start demanding answers they have the right to have. Like I said, as a victim of a scam myself I’ve lost all sympathy and empathy for project owners that let outside things ruin the trust people have with them.

    Before anyone asks, yeah I eventually got my money back but it really did open my eyes that you can’t trust anyone anymore.

  • tdc898 .

    I agree, especially considering that the whole craze was partially kicked off by Tim Schafer in the first place.
    It’s a real shame considering that their have been some cool projects to come out of Kickstarter, but it seems like the sad reality is that it’s still to unregulated, and if a project you back falls through it’s entirely possible you’ll be screwed out of your money.

  • handsomejack47

    She might or might not have actually been reprimanded, but her attitude certainly changed from what it was not too long ago.When the GG mess first started, she was very loud and obvious in baiting pro-GG people just so she could scream harassment and ban people from the MN9 forums. These days, she seems to have calmed down, but not by much. She’s still backing up ZQ and BW by attacking anyone who calls them out, but she’s not openly picking fights with people. She’s just retweeting people who do, like a_man_in_black.

  • Erthwjim

    Perhaps she sucks at what she does if she can’t make a living wage. Time for her to change careers. Also, when you’re hard up on cash, you start cutting things back, I would think charity (IE patreon) should be one of the first things you cut back on and eliminate until a point and time at which you can afford it again.

  • Freakydemon

    Fucking up your Kickstarter and not paying back your debts IS a story, one we keep hearing over & over again.

  • Pepipopa

    People giving money expecting a product and getting nothing back and their money being withheld is a non-story?
    40000$ is a lot of fucking money mate. You can’t just wave it off and say “This doesn’t matter”

  • Fenrir007

    Looking at her twitter, it’s funny to see that she didn’t pay some of the taxes because “she didn’t know she had to”. If you have no idea on how to run a business in the first place, consider getting at the very least an accountant.

    Nowadays, when I’m backing something on KS, I check both the state of the game as well as the reputation of the devs before pledging. So far, delays aside (and I’m fine with those) I had no duds.

    I should probably start checking if the devs are based in SanFran from here on as well. That place is too “toxic” and “problematic” to ignore.

  • Fenrir007

    Her second gamedev check – if such a mythical thing exists – will go to the IRS. As will the third. And the forth. And the fifth one.

  • Audie Bakerson

    Sir, feel free to go right ahead and label everyone who doesn’t think a badly scarred penis makes you a woman as “afraid”.

  • dsadsada

    I make it a personal policy that if I ever have debt to someone, I pay it back ASAP so that I don’t have to worry over it anymore. If she had bills to pay, she should pay those first and set aside the rest to reimburse her backers. Giving away money you can’t afford to give makes no sense to me at all. How can you support others if you can’t even support yourself? That’s merely a short term aid that you’ll be doing and you’re only tightening the noose around your own neck. If you’re financially stable enough to support others, then you can support them for much longer with far less worries.

    For the sake of staying civil, I’m going to pretend I didn’t see who she donated to and I’ll also pretend she isn’t acting incredibly immature about people rightfully criticizing her for her lack of money-management-common-sense skills.

  • dsadsada

    I see no hatred in his posts. At all. If he just googled the name to find more information on this story (and why wouldn’t anyone want to confirm things they read on the internet unless they’re stupid, especially when honesty in journalism is a hot topic at the moment) then he would have easily been able to find that information as well regardless of whether or not he was specifically looking for it. His post was definitely just an FYI.

  • dsadsada

    I’d be pretty damn upset at people using money that was donated to them for things other than what they promised to use it for. Doubly so for anyone I would have deemed on my side since they make the side I support look bad.

  • dsadsada

    Again, not seeing hatred. Just a disagreeing viewpoint. Having a different opinion doesn’t always mean hate unless you think a person’s gender association is literally the only thing that defines them. I’m not sure if doing that is a form of sexism but it rather feels like it to me. If it was hatred, he’d be saying things like calling that person disgusting or saying they should die or things like that.

    It’s like disagreeing that Char’s Zaku is actually pink when he claims it to be red. You’re not hating the color red just because you think it’s actually pink.

  • dsadsada

    “Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.”

    Which basically means that there is an obligation to pay back what was given. Like any debt, any excess money she makes now that does not go to living expenses and taxes should rightfully belong to the creditors.

    Hmm, I should be a loan shark.

  • Audie Bakerson

    Facts are a prejudice now?

    A major error in a news article should be corrected.

  • dsadsada

    The Zaku analogy matters only in the sense that two people view the same thing differently because that’s literally the only thing I’m talking about right now. I really don’t care how a person identifies their gender as but I will respect it, just like I’ll respect someone opting to disagree.

    Also, beep bop logic bot is actually a compliment to me. Letting yourself get carried away by emotions alone makes no sense to me and I feel it’s harmful to just about everyone when you fail to think things through before acting. Thinking things through includes social context and history by the way. Which is why my own logic dictates to me that nobody should care about another person’s gender or what other people think about other people’s gender outside of looking for their mate. It’s never beneficial. As long as nobody cares about other people’s gender or gender association, that 90% harassment wouldn’t exist since nobody would be harassing a person for their gender identity, which would tie up with the police reporting figures and suicide figures, and people of any gender would be able to serve in any army as long they’re capable. Emotions feel great but they’re almost completely stupid in decision making where it matters. Except marriage. Personal marriage that is and not the marriages of other people.

    I’d make a longer comment about the badly scarred penis being badly worded reasoning which is extremely debatable that I’m sure you would never agree with but I suppose we should just end this now and live our own lives as you say. I mean you can say something in response and I might reply but I’m just not seeing us reach a consensus.

  • dsadsada

    Honestly the first major relevance of this story to techraptor is its association to kickstarter. And admittedly its second, though you would say its primary relevance, would be its association to FemFreq.

    Anyway, what are you referring to by the FleetComm scam? Truth be told, I haven’t heard anything like that before but I am interested.

  • WilliamRLBaker

    She supported it to garner followers, then basically demanded we kill milo because he doesn’t support trans people 100%, we told devi to go to go away and devi decided to side with the anti gg claiming GG had harassed devi, and threatened rape.

  • ArsenicSundae

    Having been duped by Double Fine myself with DS-9, I still don’t think it reflects on crowd funding negatively, but on that specific developer who abused it. I’ll still Kickstart other games, but I won’t support another Double Fine project ever again. Lay blame where it belongs.

  • disqus_V2dy5k3ULr

    Wonderful attitude, all these people I owe money to because I took it and completely failed to deliver, well fuck you guys I am making myself feel better by giving it to someone else I apparently fucked over as well.

    She is definitely prime antiGG material.

  • Ørjan Kristoffersen

    Yeah, absolutely, Divinity, Wasteland 2, and a bunch of others have been huge successes. Most of the succesful ones have been very niche though, even if they’ve filled kind of a large niche.

    If enough high profile stuff, like DF, goes to hell, I suspect it’s going to severely damage the credibility of crowdfunding.

    But you make a good point, avoid San Fran like the plague, someone put Kool-Aid in the water reservoir.

  • Ørjan Kristoffersen

    Yeah, I’m with you on that front, I still throw out some dosh for Kickstarters I find interesting when I have the chance.

    I am very worried, though, that enough of these scare-stories are going to turn people off the idea of crowdfunding alltogether.

  • Mark Samenfink

    When she refused to listen when she blatantly misunderstood a statement made regarding Fallon Fox, instead deciding it was pure hatred of all trans in all standards everywhere forever.

  • poofin

    Can we make this a verb, please?
    Because Grace Lynn really Schafered her supporters.

  • Tess

    “Doesn’t support trans people 100%”? Milo is a frothing-at-the-mouth transphobe. Milo “doesn’t support trans people 100%” like the Westboro Baptist Church doesn’t support gay people 100%.

    http://yiannopoulos.net/2014/08/15/transgenderism-is-a-psychiatric-disorder-its-sufferers-need-therapy-not-surgery/

    And once she started denouncing GG for lionizing a transphobic douchebag like Milo, GGers *did* harass her, and rape threats are pretty easy to come by from angry Gators.

  • Tess

    Backing something on KS isn’t like buying something on Steam. My attitude toward backing something is to assume that I’ve basically just given the money away to someone, then treat it as a pleasant surprise if I get something good back.

    If you want to be sure if what you’re getting, wait until it actually gets built, and buy one then.

  • Dannox

    It’s not like he’s saying to take them out into the street and beat them. He’s saying that they need help, not surgery. We don’t exactly go out and give liposuction to anorexics for a good reason.

  • Tess

    Being transgender is no more a psychiatric disorder than being gay is — both were things that some people used to believe were mental illness, but it has since been discredited in both cases, and now this claim is only advanced in either case by people unfamiliar with current medical and psychological standards of care or people who just hate trans people. (Hint: Milo is not ignorant of current standards of care.) It’s basically a pseudoscientific version of “pray the gay away,” and no more effective.

    Based on decades of clinical study, the proper understanding of trans people is that gender dysphoria is a condition for which the medically recognized treatment is medical transition to the correct gender. Milo is a bigot who doesn’t care about the actual science or medicine involved, and anyone who supports him should be aware that they are supporting a transphobe. I know that there are many people in the world who are perfectly fine supporting transphobes, but that doesn’t exactly leave you with the moral high ground if you do.

  • Tess

    Are you a recognized legal, medical, or psychological authority on transgender people, or are you disagreeing with current legal and medical standards because you’re talking out your ass?

  • Tess

    Some “disagreeing viewpoints” are intolerant hate speech.

    “I don’t hate people of other races, I just believe they are inherently intellectual inferior” is not a rational, valid point of disagreement, it is hate speech dressed up with a pretense of civility. And the comments you’re defending aren’t even trying that hard at civility.

    Why are you repping for the validity of anti-trans hate speech as a valid “disagreeing viewpoint”?

  • O Sombra

    “non-profit organisation Feminist Frequency”
    Or it should be “full-profit organiZation Feminist Frequency”?

  • Audie Bakerson

    Facts really make you people angry don’t they?

  • Tess

    Law in the United States disagrees with you that these are facts. Current medical and psychological standards of care disagree with you that these are facts. On what basis are you asserting them to be facts?

    Your disgusting bigotry against trans people is no more based in fact than any other ignorant prejudice is, and you have outed yourself as a terrible human being.

  • dsadsada

    Because those disagreeing viewpoints you’ve used as an example really don’t have any logic behind them and I those are the ones I don’t defend but rather tell people to keep to themselves. A little history lesson about me, I used to be homophobic although not an outspoken one by any means. What made me change? I simply grew up and decided that their sexuality does not impact me in any way and so my irrational hatred of them is something I should do without. I’m fairly certain people confronting me about it would have made me dig my heels in on that stance however as relinquishing an argument is something I tend not to do. I don’t think many people enjoy being told their wrong and they’ll simply latch on to their misguided justifications even harder. But if they’re the slightest bit intelligent, they’ll figure out for themselves how much of an idiot they were being much like I was.

    I’ll assume you were hasty on your reply and will ask you to read my second paragraph again before I start calling you illiterate. In case it’s still hard to understand, then the logic in it extends to race, nationality, religious beliefs, and so many other things.

    As for why I bothered conversing here at all, it’s because I chose to give a person the benefit of the doubt as there was no inherent hate contained in a sentence that is essentially “by the way, this person was born with a penis” and is merely a statement of fact.

  • Dannox

    If the only two reasons you can imagine for someone to disagree with your stance are ignorance and hate, then you have no real defence, you have dogma.

  • Tess

    > I’m fairly certain people confronting me about it would have made me dig my heels in on that stance however as relinquishing an argument is something I tend not to do. I don’t think many people enjoy being told their wrong and they’ll simply latch on to their misguided justifications even harder.

    To be honest, I couldn’t care less. I don’t have any interest in catering to the sensibilities of those who misgender trans people.

    If you’re over being homophobic, that’s delightful, but I hope you don’t think that gay people had any special obligation to treat your earlier homophobic views with any respect in the hopes that you would eventually come around.

    > I’ll assume you were hasty on your reply and will ask you to read my second paragraph again before I start calling you illiterate.

    Well, let’s see what we have here:

    > It’s like disagreeing that Char’s Zaku is actually pink when he claims it to be red. You’re not hating the color red just because you think it’s actually pink.

    If you really think that misgendering trans people is closely analogous to disagreeing about the color of some ridiculous fictional robot (or whatever, I didn’t spend too much time Googling it because I don’t really care), you really don’t understand us at all, do you?

    People misgender us all the time, and it’s not some cute kind of disagreement. It gets us harassed and openly discriminated against and beat up and killed.

    > As for why I bothered conversing here at all, it’s because I chose to give a person the benefit of the doubt…

    How delightful for you.

    > …as there was no inherent hate contained in a sentence that is essentially “by the way, this person was born with a penis” and is merely a statement of fact.

    Of course, that wasn’t actually what the earlier commenter said.

    “Grace/Devi is, in fact, male”

    “Sir, feel free to go right ahead and label everyone who doesn’t think a badly scarred penis makes you a woman as ‘afraid’.”

    Neither of those are the same as the statement “by the way, this person was born with a penis,” and if you can’t see that then I see some pretty serious irony in you challenging others’ reading comprehension.

    The earlier respondent is using a definition of the word “male” that is both legally and medically outdated and incorrect, as well as harmful to trans people. And the supposition that someone has “a badly scarred penis” is factually incorrect in a pretty obviously hostile way.

    As I said, if you’re over being homophobic, I’m delighted for you. But you appear to have some pretty substantial misunderstandings regarding trans people. I frankly don’t appreciate you trying to use that “voice of authority” tone to lecture me on my being expected to tolerate this kind of ignorant, hateful misgendering when it seems readily apparent that you know very little about us. Is it that you know so little that you don’t even realize how much there is that you don’t know?

  • Tess

    So, if someone has no special expertise in a topic and yet they decline to accept facts established by relevant medical and legal authorities, instead advancing a factually incorrect agenda that is actively harmful to trans people, exactly what motive are you suggesting that I attribute to them?

  • dsadsada

    My getting over homophobia is simply being used as an analogy which could possibly be applied to transphobes. Nothing more.

    The comment about the Zaku is merely talking about any disagreeing viewpoint in general. Nothing specific (see “The Zaku analogy matters only in the sense that two people view the same thing differently because that’s literally the only thing I’m talking about right now”).

    Saying that a person is male means they were born with a penis regardless of whether they identify themselves as a woman or not (and if you do, I personally have no problem with that). Same goes for if the person ever had a penis that was “badly scarred” or anything else done to it as they needed to have had a penis in the first place. Unless that person happened to be a hermaphrodite but that requires having been born with female sexual organs as well.

    Now I’d like to go back to my other comment about not caring about other people’s personal matters. Does it really matter to you at all if somebody on the internet viewed gender identity differently from you if they’re not actually acting on it offline? It’s not as if he’s saying that he treats transgendered people any differently than anyone else and as long as that could be the case, I see no immediate reason to fret. I’m fairly certain my homophobia (still being used only as an example so stop treating it like I’m using it to make me off as a saint) wasn’t impacting any homosexuals since I wasn’t acting on it. There’s always going to be somebody who disagrees with somebody else on a matter. Getting upset over it every single time isn’t the least bit healthy in my opinion, especially when it’s just a simple comment online. Save it for when it’s something being done in the flesh.

    To summarize the only point I’m making which isn’t too different from my comments to chxnvoices, “calm down and stop being so overly sensitive lest you give yourself a heart attack”.

  • Tess

    > Saying that a person is male means they were born with a penis regardless of whether they identify themselves as a woman or not

    Why are you trying to state this as though it were an incontrovertable fact? Stop it. Aside from being wrong, you’re being a cissexist jerk.

    > Same goes for if the person ever had a penis that was “badly scarred” or anything else done to it as they needed to have had a penis in the first place.

    > Unless that person happened to be a hermaphrodite but that requires having been born with female sexual organs as well.

    The word you were looking for was intersex. It seems pretty clear that despite the fact that you are trying to position yourself as a neutral and magnanimous spouter of authoritative facts, you have absolutely no idea just how much you don’t know about this topic. It’s just a textbook example of the Dunning Kruger Effect in action.

    > Does it really matter to you at all if somebody on the internet viewed gender identity differently from you if they’re not actually acting on it offline?

    Why would we assume that someone who is transphobic online is going to be a beacon of tolerance for trans people offline? I assume that anyone carrying around ignorant and offensive misconceptions around trans people online is perfectly likely to be someone who discriminates against us for jobs, votes to acquit people who commit violence against trans women, or is maybe even someone who likes to attack us himself. It must be nice to wander into conversations like this knowing that no one involved in it is ever going to harm you or someone like you, but I don’t have that luxury. And given that you seem to have no idea what that feels like, I really don’t appreciate you lecturing me at all.

    > I see no immediate reason to fret.

    No, I’m sure YOU don’t.

    > There’s always going to be somebody who disagrees with somebody else on a matter.

    When that matter is my civil rights, can you not see why I am completely unwilling to accept your faux-reasonable live-and-let-live garbage. I mean clearly you’re getting off on being “the reasonable one” here, but that’s a bunch of garbage. You have to deal with being trans exactly zero days out of your life, but it’s a fundamental fact of my everyday existence. That doesn’t make you “unbiased,” it makes you fundamentally ignorant about me and what my experiences are. It’s ok to not know things — all of us have subjects we’re ignorant about. But the wisest thing you can do in that event is to be aware of your own lack of knowledge and experience and LISTEN to the people who have it instead of lecturing them. I guarantee that I have read a million times more and thought a million times more about transgender issues than you have, because it affects my life to the core of my being. You trying to present yourself as an authority on the subject despite that is a complete effing embarrassment.

    > Getting upset over it every single time isn’t the least bit healthy in my opinion, especially when it’s just a simple comment online.

    You have walked exactly zero miles in my shoes. Eff you for thinking you have any effing idea what I need to do to take care of my own health in this situation. Do you know what would be healthy for me? Not HAVING to smack down ignorant d-bags like you who think they are the authority on my life. But if you’re going to spout that garbage, I am ABSOLUTELY going to come right back at you rather than let it stand uncorrected.

  • dsadsada

    Because a person is born with a particular body, male or female (or the inbetween that is scientifically identified by the term hermaphrodite which is why I bothered bringing it up). They may discover later on that they don’t agree with the body they were born with but that doesn’t happen until they’re old enough to even understand the difference between male and female and are capable of identifying their self but until that point, they’re still technically identified by the sexual organs they were born with. What sexual organs they were born with is a fact that won’t change. However we thankfully live in a time when a person’s body can be altered to match the gender they feel they rightfully are. That still won’t change what sexual organs they came equipped with out of the womb though and you’ll just have to accept that as a neutral fact. You can disagree with the people who think that the organs you were born with are the only things that can identify your gender however.

    Why would we assume that someone who is transphobic online is going to be acting it out offline were consequences are easily dealt and where such action is already frowned upon by a good portion of the population. Next time you go out, look at the next person who stands beside you that you don’t personally know. If that person doesn’t do anything to you in your presence, how do you know that person isn’t still transphobic? Is that person doing anything to oppress you if that person looks to be minding their own business? Do you think this way every second of your life? If you’re going to let yourself live with this stress and anxiety instead of letting it go, I’m not seeing you living a particularly long life.

    Unless you live in certain countries, the general populace is apathetic to other people’s sexuality or gender identity. Mind you, the country I live in is one that seems to care too much which is why I find the fact that people care at all to be stupid. Why it wasn’t too long ago that a transgendered woman was killed and the usual comments I read online was the kind of bile that would make you explode. That shit is disgusting (it’s okay to curse by the way) but if you think people are going to change because you give them a lecture, that’s highly unlikely to happen. Moreso when the reason they think the way they do stems from fear or doctrine, religious or otherwise which is why one of my earlier comments stated that emotions are stupid.

    And now that I typed that, I’m left wondering what I’m doing conversing with you about this when I have actual problems offline like a typhoon that just recently passed that destroyed a shit ton of stuff I need to fix. I may not know what it’s like to live the life of a transgendered person but I’ve got my own share of problems to deal with, not least of which is worrying where my tax money is going when the majority of our politicians are known and proven to be corrupt out the ass or whether I’ll get mugged on my daily commute in this country where almost 30% of the people live in poverty. Of course you won’t care about my problems that would most likely be insignificant to yours as I am indeed mostly ignorant to them (I need to point out that there is no sarcasm intended or included in that sentence) and frankly, I neither want nor expect you to care. But I feel comments on the internet is something that can be easily overshadowed by real world, physical problems which I’m sure you have your share of as well. So it’s for the best that you focus on those instead of something as comparatively insignificant as this.

  • Tess

    > Why would we assume that someone who is transphobic online is going to be acting it out offline were consequences are easily dealt and where such action is already frowned upon by a good portion of the population.

    Bwahahahahahahahaha. OMG, you don’t even have a clue! You have absolutely no idea how pervastive transphobia is in the real world, or how it is in fact not easily dealt with at all.

    Why on Earth would you ever think YOU were qualified to tell ME what transphobia is like in the real world?

    > Next time you go out, look at the next person who stands beside you that you don’t personally know. If that person doesn’t do anything to you in your presence, how do you know that person isn’t still transphobic?

    I don’t, obvi. But there are no shortage of people who do overtly transphobic things in RL, either.

    > Is that person doing anything to oppress you if that person looks to be minding their own business?

    No, but the people who are ACTUALLY BEING OPENLY TRANSPHOBIC are.

    > Do you think this way every second of your life? If you’re going to let yourself live with this stress and anxiety instead of letting it go, I’m not seeing you living a particularly long life.

    Fuck you and your concern trolling bullshit. I have shit in my life that you can’t even fucking imagine, so go fuck yourself for presuming to tell me how to handle it, you smug piece of shit.

    > Unless you live in certain countries, the general populace is apathetic to other people’s sexuality or gender identity.

    You are so fucking lost you couldn’t find a clue if someone waved that shit right in front of your face. You don’t have a fucking clue how people treat trans women, and how fucking dare you try to tell me what my fucking experiences are?

    Try going the fuck out in public as a non-passing trans woman sometime and see how people fucking treat you. Try going to a fucking job interview. Shit, just try walking down the fucking street. How the fuck do you think you have a clue what that’s like for us, you ignorant piece of crap?

    > Why it wasn’t too long ago that a transgendered woman was killed and the usual comments I read online was the kind of bile that would make you explode.

    Yes. Welcome to a normal day in my life. Also, helpful hint: people don’t only say that shit online.

    > That shit is disgusting (it’s okay to curse by the way) but if you think people are going to change because you give them a lecture, that’s highly unlikely to happen.

    I don’t give a fuck about them. I’m not trying to convert transphobes, they can go fuck themselves. But I will be damned if I’m going to let transphobic bullshit stand unchallenged. Setting aside your prescriptions for what YOU think will help me, what ACTUALLY helps a lot of the time is fighting back and shouting that bullshit down — letting some anger loose keeps me from internalizing what they’re saying and letting it eat away at my sense of self-worth.

    > Moreso when the reason they think the way they do stems from fear or doctrine, religious or otherwise which is why one of my earlier comments stated that emotions are stupid.

    Emotions are a part of life. We are not machines. Trying to live a soulless, emotionless existence doesn’t make you a better person, it just makes you an emptier person. Been there, tried that, and allowing myself to actually feel things is a much better way to go through life.

    > And now that I typed that, I’m left wondering what I’m doing conversing with you about this when I have actual problems offline like a typhoon that just recently passed that destroyed a shit ton of stuff I need to fix. I may not know what it’s like to live the life of a transgendered person but I’ve got my own share of problems to deal with, not least of which is worrying where my tax money is going when the majority of our politicians are known and proven to be corrupt out the ass or whether I’ll get mugged on my daily commute in this country where almost 30% of the people live in poverty. Of course you won’t care about my problems that would most likely be insignificant to yours as I am indeed mostly ignorant to them (I need to point out that there is no sarcasm intended or included in that sentence) and frankly, I neither want nor expect you to care.

    Best of luck with your own problems, and I mean that with all seriousness. You’re right — you’re just a person on the internet, and I don’t really understand your problems, and I probably won’t ever unless we make a much closer connection somehow. But nevertheless, I wish you all the best in dealing with the challenges you face.

  • dsadsada

    And I to you.

    But I stand by my “emotions are stupid” stance for the same reasons as in the other comment and for many more besides that. Besides, I never said you need to live without emotions in any of my posts. Just that they should never be deciding factors for important decisions barring very few exceptions like who you want to marry. Even then “if now is a good time to marry the person I love” is something that needs to be handled logically like if you and your significant other can support such a change in lifestyle.

    But I guess if lashing back at them is what keeps your sense of self worth intact, it was wrong for me to challenge that. Sensitivity has obviously never been my strong point. So I’ll apologize now for not taking that into account. Each person really is different and that’s what makes human beings as a species so interesting. Even though I remember that, I forget that each person handles things differently. I’m sure I’ve made you feel upset (understatement) so I’m sorry for doing that to you.

  • WilliamRLBaker

    but transsexuality is a mental disorder do you not some how understand this? The very idea of transsexuality being born with the wrong chromosomes, or brain imbalances=DISORDER.
    Stating a fact is not transphobia.

  • WilliamRLBaker

    lol It hasn’t been discredited lol Its pretty much been confirmed that homosexuality, and transsexuality are mental disorders, the norm for humanity is heterosexuality this is just a fact.

  • WilliamRLBaker

    you don’t have the expertise, Deviwhatever doesn’t have it, and I can guarantee right now your “relevant medical” authorities screwed with the stats and surveys to fit their agenda not to produce facts.
    Note: I left out legal authorities because legality does not decide facts.

  • Tess

    Please tell me what credentials you have and why you think anyone should listen to you instead of current consensus standards of care.

    Gender dysphoria is the part that is an actual disorder. Medical transition to the proper gender is the only treatment clinically demonstrated to be effective.

  • Tess

    LOL

    That’s about as true as it is that there’s a growing scientific consensus that the earth is flat.

  • WilliamRLBaker

    *looks at humanity, and sees that 95% of it is heterosexual, and doesn’t believe it is the other gender*
    Hmmm

  • Tess

    So we should throw out all the medical authorities because they only make up the facts but you and your complete lack of clinical or scientific expertise somehow are in possession of the amazing hidden truth? LMAO

  • WilliamRLBaker

    lol Its laughable you single handedly will push back any progress transsexuals will ever achieve because you have to have 100% black and white support, there can never be any grey area IT has to be 100% support we have to agree with every thing you say, we have to believe transsexualism is natural in every one….In Fact I will exaggerate and say you believe every one should be transsexual otherwise their word cannot be trusted and its laughable.
    Thankfully when civilization falls people like you will disappear because you wouldn’t be able to fend for yourself.

  • Tess

    Have fun beating the tar out of that straw man, it’s really impressive work.

  • Tess

    There is natural variation in all sorts of different things — that doesn’t imply that something is wrong with people who are in an uncommon subset of the population, it only means they are uncommon. There are fewer Episcopalians than gay people, but we don’t say that they have a mental disorder.

  • WilliamRLBaker

    lol it doesn’t matter what you say Deviwhatever was shown for what devi was a narcissist that couldn’t help but demand attention, when Devi didn’t get it devi went insane against every one in the movement because we refused to be Devi’s army this is proven by facts.
    bububububbubububub Milo is a transphobe because he has an opinion I don’t like, ATTACK him! push him out! how dare any of you have an opinion different from my own.

    I also love the pseudo pray the gay away tripe you talked about earlier.
    So we have your recommendation on how to deal with transsexuality….we should do invasive surgery to the subject, and pump them full of hormones and anti depressants….
    well there is no real reason to mention any other recommendation because yours sounds quite horrible.

  • WilliamRLBaker

    recognized legal, medical, and psychological authorities aren’t actually authorities you cannot be an authority when every one who judged you as such is likely our client.

  • Tess

    So wait, you can’t ever trust doctorrs’ diagnoses because they’re getting paid to treat patients? That’s one of the most clueless, ignorant things I’ve ever heard of. Who could you possibly trust to diagnose and treat conditions if not trained doctors?

  • Tess

    I’d like to remind you that you haven’t actually made any kind of case that Milo isn’t a transphobe, you’re just arguing that transphobia is awesome because trans people are freaks.

    And yes, it’s horrible for patients to be treated with medication and surgery that has been shown to increase their prognosis and overall quality of life. I guess we should go back to leeches or faith healing?

  • WilliamRLBaker

    Id like to remind you you’ve yet to prove he is a transphobe.
    So far your only claim is that he believes that transsexuality is a mental disease of which IT IS, and that some how means he hates transsexuals and fears them.

    So much like Wu, devi whatever and a few other people like them your criteria for hatred and fear is when a person doesn’t instantly want to be like them, support them 100% in every thing they do, and basically be willing to have sex with them.

  • WilliamRLBaker

    so you are saying homosexuality is a choice? because Episcopalian is a denomination of Christian faith… how exactly does this comparison disprove that homosexuality, and transsexuality are mental disorders that people are born with? *laughably you still don’t understand that I have no problem with transsexuals much like homosexuals I believe in freedom let them do whatever they want as long as they aren’t hurting others, but it doesn’t change my belief that its a mental disorder, a benign one but still a mental disorder*

    but no ignore that question I’ll reply with this.

    *laughs his ass off as his opponent compares a denomination of faith to inborn sexuality, one being a choice the other something you are born with*

  • Tess

    > So far your only claim is that he believes that transsexuality is a mental disease of which IT IS

    This is a question of fact, and it is demonstrably false. The current standards of care specified in the DSM V do not define “transsexuality” as a “mental disease,” they define “Gender Dysphoria” to be a condition for which the recommended treatment is transitioning to the proper gender. This is the only treatment that has been shown to be effective, and a trans person who has transitioned and has alleviated their dysphoria specifically is NOT considered to have a condition or “mental disease”.

    > your criteria for hatred and fear

    Is actually when someone spreads false, prejudicial, and damaging ideas about trans people.

    > is when a person doesn’t instantly want to be like them

    Either someone has gender dysphoria or they don’t. I don’t want anyone to “be like” me, that’s a nonsense statement.

    > support them 100% in every thing they do

    There’s quite a gap between expecting someone to support me 100% in “every thing I do” and simply expecting them not to spread false and harmful information about me.

    > and basically be willing to have sex with them

    Ewww. You think I want to have sex with Milo? No thank you!

    Also, AFAIK, Milo is gay, so why would I ever think he would want to have sex with a woman anyway, even if he weren’t a horrible human being I would never sleep with?

  • WilliamRLBaker

    lol you keep talking but don’t say anything.
    it can still all be condensed to these two outcomes.

    Milo, and me. treat a transsexual with therapy, and anti depressants.
    you. do invasive surgery, up them on hormones for the rest of their life, heavy therapy to reinforce their belief they are the opposite gender, and pump them full of anti depressants.
    Also of note the guidelines you posted were written again by transsexual supporters, and those with a vested interest to continue receiving money for treatment of such individuals of which more money is made by using the above treatment regimen you recommend.
    But we can condense it down again still to more.
    Milo, and me: Believing that transsexuality is a mental disorder either derived from born in defects or social defects, thus we don’t hate or fear transsexuals.
    you: anyone that doesn’t believe transsexuality is natural, inborn, support transsexual’s in 100% of every thing they do including giving them exclusive rights, and as far to say If someone doesn’t want to have sex with a transsexual then they hate transsexuals and fear them and should die.

    you can keep spouting every thing you want to, but you are and your like still advocate that unless we do as you say then we hate you fear you, and we should either disappear or die.
    Thankfully once civilization collapses people like you *not transsexuals but sjws* will disappear because you will not be able to fend for yourself or truly work in a unit for the benefit of the group you will eat each other alive.

  • Tess

    > Milo, and me. treat a transsexual with therapy, and anti depressants.

    That’s great, except 40 years of clinical research shows that IT DOESN’T WORK. This is like expecting me to consider treating massive arterial blockage with Advil as an equally valid alternative approach. It’s perfectly valid except for the fact that THE PATIENT TENDS TO DIE.

    Gender dysphoria typically presents as treatment-resistant suicidal depression, so the likelihood of the patient dying is very real. The only treatment shown to be effective is transitioning.

    > you. do invasive surgery, up them on hormones for the rest of their life, heavy therapy to reinforce their belief they are the opposite gender, and pump them full of anti depressants.

    Therapy doesn’t “reinforce their belief they are the opposite gender” — trans people already KNOW that or we wouldn’t be transitioning. It’s incredibly obvious that you know almost nothing about trans people.

    And trans people only get invasive surgery if we want it and can afford it, because it’s an out of pocket expense many trans people can’t afford. For many of us, transitioning and taking hormones are enough to cure dysphoria.

    > Milo, and me: Believing that transsexuality is a mental disorder either derived from born in defects or social defects, thus we don’t hate or fear transsexuals.

    What clinical research have you done? What trans people have you worked with to draw this conclusion? The people who have actually done research into this disagree, and the people who actually experience it disagree. I mean, you can go around claiming that colon cancer is caused by solar flares, but that doesn’t mean that anyone should listen to you.

    And yes, ignoring actual research and instead claiming that people are DEFECTIVE is hate. And why would you be so determined to ignore actual facts if you didn’t have an axe to grind?

    > support transsexual’s in 100% of every thing they do

    Yes, unless you support the right of a trans person with no flight experience to pilot commercial aircraft, I think you hate trans people. Oh wait, no I don’t. I just expect you to support granting us the right to get treatment for gender dysphoria under the current standards of care and the same rights that cis people automatically have.

    > giving them exclusive rights

    What garbage are you making up now?

    > If someone doesn’t want to have sex with a transsexual then they hate transsexuals and fear them and should die.

    Where the hell did you get this from? Dude, I promise — I don’t want to sleep with you! Ick! Nobody is putting a gun to anyone’s head and forcing them to have sex. Have sex with whoever you want to (as long as it’s not me), or stay celibate for the rest of your life, it doesn’t matter to me. And AFAIK, Milo is gay, so why would the question of him sleeping with trans women even come up? WTF?

    > unless we do as you say then we hate you fear you

    Unless you grant people equal rights, yes, I think that is a symptom of hate. It’s not ok to just agree to disagree about whether I have equal human rights or not.

    > we should either disappear or die

    Wait, are you trying to get sympathy for the fact that people don’t like you because you oppose equal rights for trans people? Hint: trans people who get discriminated against or who can’t get the help they need are the people who actually end up dying.

    > Thankfully once civilization collapses

    OMG, you are so pathetic with your sad little revenge fantasies, dude. You’re an embarrassment.